#13 :: Inclusion and Belonging Matter. Where To Begin, with Marie Roker-Jones - Essteem

Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DE&I) is not just the latest buzzword in corporate culture. It’s critical for your business to work and for your people to innovate together. And you can’t get there with a one-off workshop. Marie Roker-Jones takes us through a primer on this critical aspect of human interaction and understanding and shares her company, Essteem’s innovative process for helping companies achieve their goals in this area. 

Essteem: https://www.essteem.com/

Recorded on 01.13.21

TRANSCRIPT

Andrea Spirov: Hi, everyone, welcome back to the 100 CEO Project. If you're a business leader, and even if you aren't, if you're engaged with any type of organization in any capacity, diversity, equity and inclusion or DE&I likely is or should be top of mind. Today, we're going to explore this topic with our guest, Marie Roker Jones, co-CEO of Essteem, which organizes hackathons for employers to recruit, hire and retain women and people of color in tech. Marie has a long history of social impact entrepreneurship, leading strategic initiatives for inclusion and belonging. And she really walks the talk, because she's also the founder of Raising Great Men, which provides parenting programs and workshops for raising boys and navigating the challenges as well of military deployments. And she's also helped tech companies with diversity, hiring goals through veteran and military spouse initiatives, as well as reentry programs for underrepresented communities. So Marie, we are so glad you could join us today. 

Marie Roker-Jones: Thanks for having me on. I'm so excited to speak with you.

AS: We're going to explore these topics of racial healing and de-biasing as they relate to hiring practices in just a second. But I do want to start with some of the challenges that you overcame this year or last year actually, 2020. When we last caught up with you, you mentioned both personal and professional growth while running Essteem over the last year. So can you share about those growth areas to kick off the conversation? 

2:05

MRJ: Sure, like I think, personally, I learned a lot about myself. I learned about, you know, being able to be flexible and pivoting with Essteem because of COVID. And, and just better understanding the scope and the importance of diversity and inclusion. I think one of the things that I had to be really mindful of was focusing more on inclusion and belonging, as opposed to just diversity. And so it's been a nice learning experience. And I think if you can't grow as a leader, then it's very difficult for you to come up with the innovative and come up with ideas and and really start to be impactful.

AS: Can you give us... Let's back up for just a second, let's do a working definition about diversity versus inclusion. How do you define those? 

MRJ: I define diversity more as a coming together of those who have different thought experiences and backgrounds. Inclusion is when you are open and respectful of those different thoughts and experiences in cultural ethnic backgrounds. So, you know, we can be in a room and be diverse, but I may not necessarily be included in the conversation. And on top of that, I mean, I feel like I belong in that space, because the space is not making me feel psychologically safe. I don't feel that it's a trusted space. So they all go hand in hand. But I think there's such a big push and there's so much talk around diversity, that inclusion and belonging start to become secondary or just overlooked. But they all are part of the overall, you know, goal of making companies, work cultures more inclusive and impactful.

4:04

AS: So that's a lot for companies to take on. I mean, it's some - you can't solve this with one workshop. So we're curious about your process. How do you come to learn about these beliefs that companies have? And how do you bring about that shift? And especially in a larger organization? What does that look like? 

MRJ: Yeah, thanks for asking that. I think what's difficult is that when people think about diversity, inclusion and belonging, or let's just you know, look, for example, diversity; thinking we want to start an initiative. They're looking at, how are we going to measure this? So everything starts to become about metrics and starts to become about the ultimate goal and how are we going to show that we are this company that's diverse, and little thought his thought is put into being intentional about making diversity and inclusion part of the DNA of your company. It should be something that, this is part of our values, part of our mission; it shouldn't be an afterthought. So one of the things is that corporations sometimes want this to be quick. They want to do like a one-off workshop, right? And it's like, okay, we did an anti-bias. I mean, our anti-racism workshop. Yay, we, we've done this. But the truth is, is that sometimes employees become resentful, or feel like why am I in this space, I'm not this person. So you have to be really mindful of what you're bringing to your organization and why it's important. So if you're not getting the buy-in, it's not just leadership, you just have to get the buy-in of your employees and make sure they understand why your company values, diversity and inclusion and belonging. So it is a process. But I think there's this quick fix that people want because, honestly, it's just for marketing reasons, or just to look like hey, we care, which is why it was easy to just put up like a BLM, right? On, you know, on your page, but not actually having a process or a system in place to really think about how are we going to be intentional about this?

AS: Laurie do you want to pull on this thread a little, um, before we move on to Esteem and the hackathons? I want to talk about the hackathons. 

6:38

Laurie Pillow: I’ve got a bazillion questions around this one. So, Marie, you've given us an example, or rather a working definition of diversity. Also a definition of inclusion. But as you just mentioned, diversity is not something that happens with a workshop. Inclusion is certainly not something that happens with a workshop and then digging deeper than that, obviously, and you touched on it as being perhaps one of the most important things and most easily overlooked, because it's that intangible, what does it mean to belong? Whether it's in a social group at work, in politics, wherever it might be. So could you give us - I know, this is a beast of a question. But if you had to reduce your process down to just a few steps, or describe the architecture of belonging, what does that look like? What are the things that are essential for individuals in groups to feel a sense of belonging? 

MRJ: I really love that. I appreciate you asking, um, I would say is being able to bring your whole self you know, being authentic, and feeling as if, and I use this word a lot psychologically safe. And what I mean by that is, when you're in a space where you're Laurie, you're Andrea, and I'm Marie, and we're bringing our true selves to that you're in a, you're in a place where you can be creative, when you can innovate, where you can bring your ideas, and you're excited about it. Because you feel valued, you feel respected, you feel trusted. And there's not this, like, in the back of your mind, where you're thinking, Oh, my goodness, somebody's gonna say something because I'm a woman, or somebody's gonna say something, because I'm black, or I have a disability, where you're just feeling like, I can say this, because I trust the group, or the people I'm around, and they trust me. And they know that what I'm saying has value and they know that I'm intelligent, like, there's no microaggression. So you're coming in that space, feeling free. If I wouldn't say what belonging is, it's a freedom, the freedom to be you. And not like, feel like, I have to present myself this way. So I have to be smarter, and I have to be wittier, and I have to be prettier. And I have to do all these things. No, it's just coming to that space. And just feeling like this is the true me. And it's okay. I don't have to impress anyone.

9:05  

AS: How does someone foster that? Like, what does that look like? If you're a team leader, or you're in a team, and maybe you're just getting a sense that someone doesn't feel included? Or that it's just not a place where people are feeling free? Like what can you do? Like what's, what's the first step? 

MRJ: I think the first step is really looking in the space that you are, if you're a leader, looking at when you're leading a meeting, when you're just having stand ups, are you really tapping into everyone? Is there someone you're in that's not speaking up? And maybe you're overlooking them? It's, do you notice that someone is maybe a little bit uncomfortable? And how do you maybe draw that, draw them out a little bit more, but not doing it in a way that they're embarrassed or you're calling them out, but really taking the time to get to know this person? It's just being I guess, it's being more aware and that and a little bit more hyper aware of who your team is. And how are you helping them to be true to themselves, and then also addressing when there are like microaggressions or biases, because that sometimes is not addressed or is taken as a joke. So, really, and leading by example, where these things are not acceptable, this is not funny. You made somebody uncomfortable, and addressing it. 

Do you mind if I tell your story of belonging that is so enriching for me, because it was such a positive experience. I was at a meeting. And if there were no seats, and it was mostly men at this table, and there everyone was either a founder or CEO, no one made space for me. So another white woman came, she sat next to me, and she was like, I can't believe no one made space. She said, Do you know what? I am going to make space for us. And she said, we're going to count on three, we're going to move our chairs and make these men give us room. And what I loved about that was she included me, she realized that as a black woman that if I did it, I might be seen as being aggressive. And she could very well have done it for herself, right. But she included me and I felt like I can't tell you how much of a relief I felt. And then the best part is that when we did it, she leans over and says, we did it, right. Like it was just so beautiful. And you know, these are things that these are little things you can't take for granted, because you don't know what's going on in someone's mind. And she was very, she didn't know me, she was very aware of the fact that I was uncomfortable and that no one addressed it. And as soon as she came, she was just like, this is not happening. No, we're making space at this table. So that's, that's what belonging looks like, is realizing that, you know what, everyone has the freedom, and everyone should bring their true selves, and you have to make space. So I love that story. I appreciated that woman. I thanked her. And yeah, so.

AS: I like that story too. A lot. 

MRJ: Yeah, it was awesome. It was an awesome opportunity. And those men were shocked. I think that was the best part is the look on their faces. Because they literally, we kind of moved in and elbowed. And having an ally to do that was so refreshing for me. So I felt like yeah, I belong at this table, literally, right a seat at the table.

AS, MRJ: [laughing]

12:49

LP: When it comes to, let's say belief systems, right? There's certain beliefs that we all have. It's, you know, it's based on the way we're raised, or who we work with, or where we come from, there are a bazillion things. Have you encountered a single way, not as if it's a silver bullet, but one way that always allows people to go, oh, gosh, maybe I don't have it all figured out. I'm not saying that, you know, selling them on DE&I I'm not saying pushing them towards it, telling them they're wrong, or trying to even dismantle their belief system, but something that one can do that will allow people with, let's say, less open belief systems to be amenable to being pulled towards a different belief?

MRJ: You know, that's a great question. I'm not usually asked that question. So thank you. Um, I think it's difficult, right? Because as you mentioned, there's years of you know, learned behavior. And then there are all the other things that happen to us that the experiences that add to it. I would say, one of the things I've learned is to listen, but to be mindful of your own polarizing thoughts, meaning, and your own bias, because honestly, we all were human, we all have biases, but to listen without the intent of correcting or fixing something, because I think this is where the problem starts to like bubble, right? Because people think, okay, you have this bias, or you just said something, and I, it was a microaggression. So now I'm going to call you out on it. But I'm not going to really take the time to understand why you think that way, or why you said it. And also it's because of this pain. When we're in pain, we're not. We're shut down. We're not trying to listen to anyone. But if you create a space where you're just like what you said was inappropriate. And I'm, I want to explain to you why. But I also want to understand why did you think it was okay to say it? Or why do you think that way?

We never know why people think the way they do. We just assume, oh, you're this or you're that, but we don't know. And it's not easy. Don't get me wrong. It's something I have to learn. And I practice it and practice it. And I still don't have it right. Because in that moment, you just want to tell somebody what you are thinking. But I'm also mindful of this movie I saw. It was called Crash. And it's, I think, Matt Damon's like this racist cop. But then when you see the backstory of how his dad was just this great man who's really good to African Americans, and that’s where his, and his dad I think lost his business, whatever it was, but you understood the root of his anger. And you understood the root of why he behaved that way. So, again, that's not easy. And I'm not saying it's for everyone. But when we can start to listen and try to figure it out, we kind of start to make progress. But again, it takes time. It's not something where you can just say, today, I'm going to be, you know, more patient and loving. We can do that mantra, but by the end of the day, we're ready to scream at someone. So it's just being conscious of it and saying, okay, I have, let me try to understand why this is happening right now. But it's difficult, I'm going to be honest, because in that moment, you're thinking about yourself, and protecting yourself and your space.

16:51

LP: It's one thing to have to go into the workplace and say to employers, for example, guys, this is important stuff, right? It's another thing to ask the people who are not being included, and who do not feel that they belong, to also take as active a role, I imagine in the process, as is incumbent upon the employer, or the workplace leadership. How do you create equity in terms of voice in the process of introducing and establishing diversity, inclusion and belonging? 

MRJ: Yeah, that is deep. And I'm glad you asked that. Because I think it's not something we talk about often. And you're right, like I did, you know, I was talking the other day about my black is tired, meaning, being tired of doing the work for other people. And I, it seems to, that's what you're alluding to, like, you know, employees bring this in, and then it's like, whatever, if it's race, gender, disability, these are the people who have to actually do the work so that others can learn it, as opposed to people just being accountable, and being proactive to do it themselves. And the truth is that most people don't believe that they're like that. Most people want to believe they're good. Most people want to believe their bias, which is why we get offended if somebody says something, because we're like, Ah, that's not me. I'm not like that. So most people aren't in the position, they already think, I'm in that space. I'm not like those who stormed the Capitol. But the truth of it is, there's always room to learn. So people have to be open, and for, I do think leaders are responsible for not just bringing in programs or starting initiatives. But as I said, to really lead by example, and saying, make those who are the majority, the ones that start to lead the conversations, as opposed to me as a black woman having to lead this conversation, and then others feeling defensive, because maybe they're not in that space. So it's really more about how do I move from ally to accomplice? How do I speak up for you, kind of like the example I gave with the woman. How do I speak up for you? And how do you create a space where when somebody sees that, it's like, when the schools do the whole bullying thing, it's the same thing. You have to create the environment where those who have more of the power or the stakeholders will speak up on behalf of the others because when people keep doing it, you start to get tired, you start to get overwhelmed, and that psychologically safe space is not there anymore. So it's really, it really belongs to you having that that culture has to be there. I'm not saying it's easy. But those are the stakeholders have to really think about, what does this mean? Yes, I want it to be inclusive. But what does that mean for us? Now? What does it mean, overall, the general definition but for us in our space? What does that look like? And what are we going to do to make sure others feel like that? And who's going to step up? Who's going to step up? And be that person? Who are the people that are going to be this kind of like, advocate, the upstanders? Where are they? That's what we need. Whether it's for, you know, for any group, diverse group, who are the upstanders, that are going to say something, you know, if I have if I'm deaf, who's going to be the upstander? To say, we don't have closed captioning on, you know, meetings? Why should the person who is deaf be the one to say it?

So that's what it is being conscious and aware of our own privilege. Because we all have a privilege that we're just not tapping into. Being aware of that privilege and saying, am I speaking up for someone right now? Am I looking out for someone that may not be in the position to do it for themselves? So that's really what leadership and companies have to think about - not putting programs together is who -  are we creating upstanders within our organization.

AS: To me, also, this - companies are constantly telling their workforce to remain educated, be a constant learner. They're always looking to listen to their customers, for example. So it's just an extension of that learning that we learn about each other. Because you're talking, I was thinking I had to look her up about Diya Khan, the, she's a Muslim woman who went and worked with white supremacists to uncover to learn, and these, if you watch her videos, you'll cry, because she's just like, she's she sat had been so brave to work with these people. And just when she uncovered why they became who they are, she understood and they started to understand her and like, love her now. I mean, so just to see that actually happening. For companies, I feel that this is just an extension of learning. You spend every day with these people, if you can't learn if you can learn about the product, go to market, the best way to go to market what's what's why or why is it not a priority to learn about the person sitting next to you every day, who you know nothing about, really, personally, you might be affected by the ways of the, excuse me, by the ways that the workforce, or the workplace, the way things are manifesting in the workplace. So I love what you're saying, I love what you're saying so much. 

MRJ: I think people too, don't want to come off as if they don't know, we all want to seem to be like, Oh, I know about this, right? And so then we say something, and it's like, oh, that was inappropriate? Because I don't know. And honestly, we're all guilty of it. Because no one wants to look like you don't know, or that you're out of the loop. Right? It's like this whole idea of being woke. It's like, Yeah, I know, I got this. So that's when the learning kind of stops. But the truth is, every day is an opportunity for us to learn, and be mindful and ask questions. Just ask. I did that. You know, there was a transgender woman, and I asked, How can I be? How can I be an ally? What do I need to know? Because I don't understand. And I don't want to say the wrong thing. And guess what? She was very gracious, because I asked, and I didn't make an assumption that, oh, I'm a black woman. I know what it's like, and, hey, we're in this together. No, we're not. Because we have very different needs. So I have to know my place and understand and ask. Just ask like, how do I do this?

You know, and if somebody doesn't listen, somebody doesn't want to answer. Maybe they're just a jerk. I mean, honestly, there's some people that are just - regardless of any background, they just are. And they're just like, I'm not, oh. But if you ask, and you're, you're asking, you're being authentic, most people are going to say, I appreciate that. Here's something, but I'm not doing the work for you. I can tell you, but you got to do the work.

24:42

AS: So Marie, I want to hear about the hackathons. This is an interesting, I guess, HR type initiative, and we will know all about it and how it's working and what it does. 

MRJ: Yeah, I mean, we're learning as we go, as I mentioned, so it's new. It's different, because we do like project based interviews for companies to really get to know diverse tech talent. And talk about bring your true self. What we've seen is that people in tech, when they're in a hackathon, they're bringing, they're being authentic, they’re focused. You're going to see the best of them. They may not bring their best in an interview, their resume may not even be great or LinkedIn profile, but you're going to see who this person is. And you're going to have an idea of what value they bring to your team. Not the fit, the value. And they're going to get an idea. Do I want to work for this company, to be honest? Um, and the one thing I want to be mindful of is that everything that all hackathons are centered around social impact. So we focus on one of the UN's 17 sustainable goals, or if the company has a business solution. But it's not free labor, we want to make sure companies are aware of like, no, no one's coming here to do something for free. But what they're doing is, they care about this topic. So either they're looking for a job, and sometimes they're not, sometimes they just care so much that they're like, I am excited to be part of a team. Let's think of a solution that we can now provide to an NGO that we can now have as open source. So, and that's the part that excites us is because not only is it a DE&I hiring initiative, but it's also a social impact initiative. And so we get to give back and these teams get to build something that's dynamic.

26:27  

AS: What does it look like? Is it an afternoon? Is it you assemble a team and bring in like, what I'm just wanting to know about this? Because I think this is so exciting. 

MRJ: So what we do is, if a company comes to us and says, you know, I'm hiring for software engineers. So we say, okay, we just get the basic information, how many years experience, what are you looking for, and then we start to open it up to our community, and then our nonprofit partners that do work in the tech space, their communities.

Besides vetting for hiring, we open it to anyone. So it's a seven day virtual hackathon. But most people, most teams are just working on their own. So even though the first day, there's a lot, there's a kickoff. And we have like, conversations, networking events, so people teams can build. Most of the other days, the five other days, they're working, and communicating via Slack, Discord, whatever platform they choose, but we want to be mindful that some people are working, or some people have other obligations. So they work on their own time, which is great, because if somebody is overseas they could still contribute as a team member. And then by the seventh day, they present their solutions. And some teams get to finish and some may not. But some of them have such great MVPs at the end that they've surprised themselves. And I'm excited because one of our last hackathons, one of the teams is now building an app. And she's thinking about becoming a founder. And she was like, a social worker turned front end developer. And she's like, never in my wildest dream did I think I'd become a founder. But I want to take this to the next level. So there's so much you can see emerge from just a hackathon.

AS: Laurie, she's gonna unmute, I see her head exploding over there. It's different than what I for some reason, I thought it was like an afternoon thing or weekend. So this is really, yeah...

MRJ: We make it so we had them a week long, because we want them to, really, we don't want them to become overwhelmed. And I think what as teams start to come together, they really start to understand the impact they can make with whatever they're creating. And so it gives them this opportunity to be mindful of, what are we putting together? And why is it important? And why do we want to do this? And who are we going to help with this? And then how does this show the company, who I am, and what I can do for them. And so it's exciting for me, particularly for those who are neurodiverse, I want to bring that up because particularly women who may be on the autism spectrum, or, they really shine in hackathons and get to show themselves so maybe they, you know, again, they're not great during the interview. But in a hackathon, you can't deny - you can't deny what's in front of you when people are showing it to you, right. So that's what makes them awesome.

29:43

LP: I’m on tilt. The whole show not tell, that you talk about, right. Let's back up for a second. Can you give us a quick synopsis of how you developed this concept of the hackathon, the equalithon and how you vet the participants? I'd be interested to know both participant and the companies.

MRJ: So if a company is interested, or we find out from them why, like, why are you interested in diversity and inclusion? What have you done already? What do you plan to do? So we really want to make sure it's not like, hey, we want to do this so it looks good. But really, and then are you going to continue because we offer a series so that they can continue to do this with their own teams.

And for the participants, vetting is more about giving them - telling them the story about who the company is. Building this narrative about, here's the company, is this something you're interested in? I see you have, you know, number three years of experience, this is what they're looking for? Is this what you're looking for? Would you feel comfortable being in the hackathon and participating and getting to know you. We are also offering AMAs, ask me anything to hiring managers and founders, because we find that putting them in the position to answer questions, kind of you have to be transparent. And let people ask you, what are you doing? You know, are you committed to this? And how many hires have you had? What's your overall goals or plans for diversity and inclusion and belonging? So we think that it's a good way to get away from this press release and just marketing, but really, to sit there and answer questions of potential candidates or team members. So…

31:45

LP: For the companies who've hired some of the talent that have participated in these hackathons, have any of the companies come back to you guys and said, hey, we need your assistance on x topic regarding diversity and inclusion?

MRJ: We've had companies that are thinking about doing another hackathon. But with COVID, it was just like, so much going on, that we had to rethink how we're doing it. And we really wanted to make sure that we weren't doing these one-offs, where it's like, oh, yeah, we did a hackathon. We're done. We wanted companies to really think about, what does a series of hackathons look like? And what, what's the overall goal you want for your teams? And when you're hiring someone, what's the onboarding process going to look like? What, what are your team's going to work on?

As I mentioned, one of the UN's development goals, what does that look like? Which one resonates with your company's mission and values? So really, I think that's the biggest thing, we learned that if we're doing one-offs, then we're kind of doing the same thing as the workshops, right. But if we want them to take action, they have to continue to do it and have these conversations and build tech for social good.

33:30 

AS: So we always have a question, Marie that's a little bit uniquely tailored. And I know that you have the initiative for young men, and we talked last time that you have sons or you have two sons, right? So I'm curious, because I have a son myself, and I feel like boys are headed for a bit of a hard time, you know, that we have a lot of division between us. And you know, as women are rising up some some, some men are losing their way. So what advice do you have for those raising boys or even for men themselves, that you see in the projects in the work that you do?

MRJ: So I would say, for raising boys, the idea is to really include them, and help them to see why it's important that they are allies, especially in the workplace. I think having those conversations -  just finding those teachable moments, you know, you mentioned you have a son so for me, it's like, letting my son see when I'm in a meeting and if they hear something, they may say, oh, my goodness, I didn't realize it's harder for women, are helping them to understand why something is being said, but helping them to look at it from the perspective of how can I be an ally? How can I later on be a better leader and  better understand, as opposed to creating more of this division where it's like boys versus girls. It's not really, it's more about character and personality. So getting them outside of this thinking about what boys can do, what girls can do, and really focusing on Okay, you know, when I said this, Mom, I said this in school. Okay, well, why did you think that way? Um, well, because I was, you know, angry. Okay, well, why, like having these conversations, and one of the things I'll start with boys what we have to do is stop suppressing boys' emotions, you know, like this whole, they'll cry. And, you know, just you're being emotional, being mindful of the words we use and the context, and really saying, You're upset, and helping them to better understand how they feel. We don't always do a great job with that. And this is why we, later on men have a difficult time expressing themselves and talking about emotions, because there's, unfortunately, this label we put on them. So helping them to express themselves, understand the emotions, there's, there's a really great, like categories, like, a list of all the emotions, I mean, there's so many. And I print that out. And I'm like, What are you feeling right now? And why? You know, because we don't put it into words, we just say, Stop crying or boys don't cry, and stop feeling like that. It's always this stop. And so when you keep telling this boy then he becomes a man, he just realizes I have to be stoic. I'm just not going to show and I'm just not going to care. But they do care. And they are sensitive. But you know, you can be sensitive and strong, you know, and reminding boys that there's there's nothing wrong. I said that to my son recently. There's nothing wrong with being compassionate and sensitive. As long as you understand why, and how, and not let others make you feel bad about how you're feeling at the moment. 

And as for men, I think it's really not shutting down the conversation, really saying, if there's men who want to be allies, getting them involved, you know, pushing more for that. I think we need to do, it's going to require this where, you know, as before, when I said that, it's not us to do the work. But in some cases, I think, where we want to have our voices heard, we're going to have to really help men understand why our voices need to be heard, why we need to be part of this and why it's important. But also stop with the you know, if a man's you know, it's men versus women, because then no one's gonna listen to the other side, we just shut down that conversation. And we really have to think, how do I get you to understand why this is important.

I'm trying to think what the other day I was gonna say, but the other, one of the things I recommend, too, is young men having a female mentor. Why not? Why not? Why shouldn't a woman mentor a young man in his career? Because it gives him this perspective of how am I going to work with a female leader, if they don't have that experience? How's a man going to report to a woman if he doesn't understand why it's important to look at her as a leader, regardless of gender? And why her thoughts and what she brings, her experience, why they're so important, and what he can gain from that. So, I said a lot, I don't know if I said the right things, but it's, it's just being mindful of that. It's, um, we should have more mentoring programs that women are mentoring young men and showing them and providing them with the opportunity.

AS: Absolutely. I think there's too many times I guess, as a female founder, I always look at, you know, all the male founders all seem to have lots of mentors. And but I very rarely have a, you know, I don't know, they just, it's just harder. And I think that inter, you know, intermixing the two is very smart, because it helps us to understand each other better as well. Women have a different way of approaching problems, than men do sometimes.

MRJ: Imagine if these men founders had women as mentors, would this conversation in tech, we wouldn't really be having this because they'd understand. And also they'd have this respect and appreciation for what women can bring. So I hope we can start to change this and stop the polarization of thinking.

AS: Powerful. I’m going to let Laurie wrap it up. I could talk all day.

LP: Me too. So Marie Roker-Jones, a bazillion thanks for coming on today. You left us with so much stuff to think about. One of the things that kind of settled as I was listening to you talk here at the end is that a lot of people who really want to do good often look outward and say gosh, okay, how can I help solve problems, especially entrepreneurs, right? And what it seems to me that part of your message is saying is that maybe even before we consider solving problems, the idea is again, to first be an ally. Reminds me of when we were little kids and you had the buddy system. And you had to hold somebody’s hand, right. Everybody had to hold somebody’s hand - it didn’t matter if you didn’t like little Mikey or whatever, it was like, yo, hold his hand. Because you guys have to be accountable for each other crossing the street because everybody is linked somehow. You left us with a lot of wisdom and great insights. How can people find you? How  can they connect with you?  

MRJ: Sure, on LinkedIn, I’m Marie Roker-Jones on LinkedIn. I love connecting with people on LinkedIn. I think your network is your net worth. I’m always happy to share. Essteem.com and you’ll find me. On Twitter, Marie Roker-Jones. But mostly LinkedIn. And I’m happy to help guide you in the right direction if I can’t do it.

LP: Hey, guys, we hope you've enjoyed today's episode. And if you did, please share it with your friends and colleagues who also have to navigate this leadership stuff. As you can see, this project is about to be a mini masterclass in every episode. Best part. It's free. So if you like it, please do us a favor and take a screenshot, share it on social with the hashtag #100CEO. That way we can say thanks and share it in our stories. And finally, if you've got some insights you'd like to share and you're a CEO, we'd love to hear from you. You can find us at 100CEOProject.com, or on LinkedIn at the 100 CEO Project. Until next time, keep leading by example.

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Hosted by: Andrea Spirov, Laurie Pillow

Writing and research: Andrea Spirov, Laurie Pillow

Edited by: Laurie Pillow

Produced by: Andrea Spirov, Laurie Pillow